John Summerton - Guitarist and Vocalist with Flintlock & The Rubettes

Mark : 0:02

Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to Talk to the Band. The podcast that is passionate about contemporary music. Our guest this week was a singer and guitarist in the 70s band Flintlock. Since then he's been involved in numerous charity events, he runs his own music academy, rehearsal studios and recording studio, and for the last few years has been on guitar and vocals with none other than the Rubettes. A warm welcome to John Summerton. Hi, John. Thanks for being on the show today.

John Summerton : 0:42

Hello.

Mark : 0:43

So Flintlock were a 1970s pop group from Essex, England's. Its members were Derek Pascoe, vocals and saxophone.

John Summerton : 0:50

Yeah

Mark : 0:50

Mike Holoway on drums and percussion

John Summerton : 0:52

Remember them well

Mark : 0:53

Jamie Stone on bass and vocals, Bill rice on keyboards, and John Summerton on guitar and vocals.

John Summerton : 0:58

That's me. Yeah, I'm here.

Mark : 1:01

Apparently, they started out as the Young Revivals. Is that correct?

John Summerton : 1:03

Oh God Yeah. You are going back now. Yeah, I was about 11.

Mark : 1:07

Is that how old you were?

John Summerton : 1:07

Yeah, me and Mike were at Valance junior school. And er yeah, we met and used to go around his house into he had a little tiny bedroom with a just a drum kit.

Mark : 1:23

So how did Flintlock come about?

John Summerton : 1:26

Well, obviously Young Revival we started out, there was four of us, a girl, Shirley and the bass player called Myles. So we were doing like little social clubs and again charity things you know, in sports centres, and Salvation Army because we was in the Cubs and scouts and stuff. Great, for our age you know 11/12. We even played for a big charity gig with who's the guy off of on the buses? Blakey - Stephen Lewis, that's how far we're going back it was him. He was he was the speaker on Yeah, we met him. And then as we were getting older the girl which is Shirley, I think she joined or was doing something else with another band. Miles then sort of went into more jazz. and we're now in secondary school. So there was two boys in secondary school two years older, which was Derek and Jamie, and we used to go and watch them, thought they're great. We started, they used to then come watch us, and we said wouldn't it be good if they come in our band. So Shirley and Miles departed, and then it was the four of us, me, Derek, Jamie, Mike, but then we needed a keyboard player. So we got Bill involved. He was from a separate school. I don't know who knew Bill. He just appeared. I don't know where he came from. But that wasn't really Flintlock. We then done a concert in Bow. So we done like three songs. This producer was in the audience, Roger price, who was producing the TV shows in the 70s, and he was also the writer and producer of Tomorrow's People, which is the Science Fiction thing. So he loved the band, come up to us at the end said: right what are you doing in three month's time, you're going to be on TV and we thought Yeah, we were only 14. And then our manager got a phone call, which was Mike's dad. And then yeah, we said we'd start rehearsals, we had to go to an acting school. Because they said we want you to be involved in the sketches and do the music. It was the old case of theme tune, write the theme tune, sing the theme tune and be in the show. And that was, You must be joking. We did two series of that. yeah. And then we got signed up with a label. It was like the classic case of, you know, you're at school, but you're not and we had to have private tutors.

Mark : 3:37

So did you actually come out of school completely to focus on that?

John Summerton : 3:40

Yeah, because we were doing like, there was four weeks rehearsal. Then there was six weeks recording. But then then there'd be a little tour or a radio tour. Yeah, promoting the single because we had like 7, 8, 9, no 9 singles out, four albums between 75 and 79. Throw in a couple of trips to Japan and schooling was like Yeah, yeah.

Mark : 4:06

So it's only when I started researching into Flintlock that I actually realised just how successful you guys really were, how busy you were. Didn't have too much success chart-wise did you?

John Summerton : 4:16

No, only one.

Mark : 4:17

Dawn, is that right?

John Summerton : 4:18

Dawn was the only major one, yeah.

Mark : 4:20

But TV shows, bearing in mind there were only three TV channels then as well yeah. So you were on You must be joking, Pauline's Quirks which is obviously Pauline Quirk.

John Summerton : 4:30

Yeah

Mark : 4:31

But you were also on Blue Peter, Magpie

John Summerton : 4:33

Magpie, Blue Peter we did when me and Mike were 11/12, that was Young Revival, which I can't find anywhere. But yeah Magpie, also, there's another TV show we done that can't find any history on it. And it was HTV, which was in Bristol, and it was Ray Allen, Ray Allen and Lord Charles. He had a cat called Alleycat and it was Magic's Magic. And he had Alibaba on there and we were the band. So we'd be like, one minute we'd be in London doing a gig in LG Jones or something like that, and then jump in the car. Quick drive down to Bristol for five o'clock. four songs and back again. It was, it was, yeah, I forgot about that one. Yeah, Magic's Magic, but I can't find it anywhere. I can't find that anywhere at all. But that was about eight or nine weeks. And Top of the Pops.

Mark : 5:27

So Top of the Pops, you were on there a couple of times weren't you?

John Summerton : 5:29

Yeah, twice, Dawn, and Magnet, which was our last single 78 towards 79.

Mark : 5:37

Now talking of singles, there was another single called Sea of Flames, which was produced by Mike Batt.

John Summerton : 5:44

He was a nice guy.

Mark : 5:45

Well, how did that come about?

John Summerton : 5:47

I'm not sure if that was our third or fourth single the after the success (laugh), of number 29 in the charts with Dawn. You think you've got to follow that up. So we tried and I think they got in Mike Batt to produce and write a song, Sea of Flames, which wasn't really our style, but it went down with the girls and the fans. But, the previous recordings were all us. So the input was from us, the writing side of it was from us, but this was someone that wrote a song for us and we've got a play it like he wants us to play it, and the discipline was, looking back now, I'm quite proud of the way we all worked, because it was very structured, you know harmonies, picking the notes - got to get it right. Then he said we've got to go to work quick because we've only got four days in the studio. And day three was I don't know, 27 violins and 6 cellos coming in, so you think they're booked? You know, we got to get right and he wrote the pieces, he was changing it on the fly and...Tthat was good, good experience watching him do that.

Mark : 6:48

So where was that recorded?

John Summerton : 6:49

It was either Air or Morgan, which was in Fulham. Honest Mark, there's so many, we had done, at such a young age with so many different studios, I mean, Queen, the studios where Queen were and Freddie Mercury. Freddie Mercury made us tea.

Mark : 7:04

Did he?

John Summerton : 7:05

Yeah, seriously in Sarm East, which is Trevor Horn. So before Buggles, Trevor Horn and his wife, Jill Sinclair, who has sadly now passed away. They owned Sarm studios, which was now Sam East and it was a basement in Aldgate. And yeah, Queen done a lot of their stuff there.

Mark : 7:23

So when are we talking now?

John Summerton : 7:25

75, because we'd be, you know, you'd say we're in the studio toda, it's Wednesday night, Wednesday afternoon, we'd go into cheap time. So they'd have the Prime time

Mark : 7:35

Yeah.

John Summerton : 7:36

And we'd have the after hour sort of thing, because it was a bit cheaper. So we'd get there early, maybe or they'd be running late and you'd be listening to My Best Friend coming out the speakers. And then Brian May coming out for a coffee and Freddie coming out, it was surreal! And then sitting on the floor with Brian May, playing his guitar with him.

Mark : 7:53

I was just gonna ask, do you remember what they were like then.

John Summerton : 7:55

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just nice. Just normal guys, well they are now.

Mark : 7:58

But obviously that was early days for them wasn't it?

John Summerton : 8:00

Oh yeah early days. Yeah, yeah he told me how his Dad made his guitar and it was before he even publicised it and this little tiny speaker cabinet he had, which is like a little hi fi speaker with an AMP in it. That's what he used for his sound and I played his guitar in front while we're sitting cross legged on the floor in the studio. Roy Thomas Baker was the producer. Yeah, Cor dear, I didn't expect to go this far back

Mark : 8:27

That's pretty incredible though. I guess what you'd call it a roller coaster ride because you went from nothing to straight up there really really quickly?

John Summerton : 8:33

Yeah, with the TV because we were like a TV band. You know, like The Monkeys, you know, we did a bit of comedy, trying to be serious with the music and then obviously gigging and touring, because we did quite a few UK tours, Germany once, but Japan we were quite big, you know the old cliche: big in Japan, but it was teeny bop, and we was over in Tokyo. First of all, we went for a promotion tour. So it's like acoustic doing record shops, and the second time we went a year later, was the tour, you know, we were full on with a band and stuff, but it was about 10 dates.

Mark : 9:06

So let's talk about the end of Flintlock. One minute. You're on TV. Yeah, you're touring Asia, Japan, and then it pretty much stops, isn't it?

John Summerton : 9:14

Yeah. Johnny Rotten, basically.

Mark : 9:17

Was it really?

John Summerton : 9:17

He's got a lot to answer for that bloke. Yeah. Yeah, it was punk. Yeah. it was the Today Programme? We were on that as well. And again, they were, I remember that Roger Daltrey stood up and was arguing about royalties and getting money. So it was still the same back then it was still people fighting about royalties and the way the music industry was, and who was getting the money. No, it wasn't the band, it was the writer or the producer.

Mark : 9:41

If we fast forward now, you've taken over Basildon Studios. That's opened quite a few doors for you?

John Summerton : 9:47

Yeah it has actually, with other gigs, the jam night which was good, which gets loads of people together. But as you say, this has opened a few doors with gigging different bands, the Love Affair, done two years with them. Only UK, but still still good experience. And then recently I've been doing a bit with The Rubettes, but it's mainly Europe, Butlins, that kind of thing. Good crowds, again playing in front of a few thousand people having a laugh and playing some 70s music.

Mark : 10:14

Great crowds as well.

John Summerton : 10:15

Great crowds yeah. Fancy dress and that's just the band. Yeah. Have you seen what I had to wear?

Mark : 10:21

I have (laugh), white does suit you. (laugh)

John Summerton : 10:24

Yeah white (laugh) Yeah. (laugh)

Mark : 10:26

So how did The Rubettes come about, was that as a result of them doing a recording here?

John Summerton : 10:30

Well they did record their last album and some Greatest Hits here, with Bill Heard. There are a couple of versions, Bill Heard's the original keyboard player. And, it's his version of the band. And unfortunately, the guy that was singing was Kenny Butler, he was singing with them and playing guitar, fronting it, and he had a wedding in Bristol. So they said, look, could you could you cover? You know, he says it's a lot to learn for one gig and it was Germany. So I didn't even meet the bass player, didn't even meet the drummer. didn't even know them. Met them at the airport and done the gig, and and then we came back. It was fly, in fly out, really good crowd in Hamburg. About two, three weeks after that, Kenny hadn't been feeling well for a while. And he was diagnosed with cancer. (pause) So he didn't play again, deteriorated quite, quite rapidly over about nine months, 10 months (pause) and then passed away not last November, the November before, (pause) so yeah, that was pretty sad. And I've carried on filling the shoes for them until the present moment.

Mark : 11:36

You've been involved in a lot of charity work over the years, way before I've known you and since then, you've obviously got the Isle of Wight concert you do every year, the gig you do every year, which is like a full weekend, isn't it?

John Summerton : 11:46

Yes. Friday till Yeah, it's been getting longer. We've been going Thursdays, Friday, Saturday, coming back Sunday. Yeah, it's been, it's been good because it's become a family. You know, I'm pretty new to it. I'm 10 or nine years in, it's been running for 37 years and due to Covid 19 this year. It's the first year we've not done it.

Mark : 12:08

Can you explain to people what actually goes on that weekend,

John Summerton : 12:11

He's, a friend, he's become a really good friend. This guy that lives in the Isle of Wight, it's his family home, his weekend home, and it's right in Yarmouth on the Isle of Wight on the seawall. But it's for local charities, so it could be for the church, it could be for anything, or anyone that needs money, a local school, so we normally, since we've been doing it, it's always between sort of 17 and £20,000 on the night we raise. Everyone gives their time up for nothing, we get expensive, so we get the ferry crossing across which is nice and, he puts up his house or a local hotel, but the money is just spent locally for the Isle of Wight. It's an entrance fee and it's wine, beer and that kind of thing on the bar and normally has some local acts on the seawall, starting around about five o'clock. I normally compare it and then the band kicks in. Around about 10 we have a couple of support artists and we have fireworks at 10 o'clock off the jetty, which is spectacular. That's one of the big ones we do. We do the Women's Refuge every year at Orsett Hall. That again raises lots of money for the Women's Refuge. But in the early days, I first got involved with a lot of golf charity in Spain, which was for the Reese Daniels Trust. That was really good, that always raised lots and lots of money for them to kids and Barry Daniels. I'm trying to think of, yeah there's quite a lot of charities we do. La Danse Fantastique, which is Moira. We do a lot for her, fund raise when we can. My band will play at the annual dinner and dance and help raise money there.

Mark : 13:52

Now, Isle of White - you met Gary Brooker.

John Summerton : 13:54

Oh yeah, Gary, Procol Harum. Yep. Gary Brooker, that was good, and John Illsley.

Mark : 13:58

Oh really?

John Summerton : 13:58

Dire Straits bass player. Yeah he got up and done a few songs with us. But that wasn't at the Isle of Wight, it was at Hampshire. Sorry, I'm digressing. That's another Charity, Same guy, different charity.

Mark : 14:06

Okay.

John Summerton : 14:06

Yeah, that was good. We did four Dire Straits songs with him. Again it was a bit surreal. You know, you're playing on stage looking across and there's John on bass singing Sultans of Swing and you're playing a guitar with him. Yeah, it is. It's quite good.

Mark : 14:19

We've got to talk about Elliott Randal haven't we?

John Summerton : 14:22

Sorry Elliott, Sorry Elliott, I forgot about you! Yeah, well that was a fluke. That was just, that was crazy.

Mark : 14:28

Elliot Randall, just in case you don't know...he did guitar side on Steely Dan's Reeling in the years. He also did the guitar solo on Fame, the theme tune to the motion film. He's played and recorded with the Doobie Brothers, Carly Simon, Sea Train, The Blues Brothers, Carl Wilson, Peter Frampton, and of course, John Summerton.

John Summerton : 14:51

And Jimmy Page has been quoted and he said that's the best solo ever. Reeling in the years. Yeah, it is an amazing solo artist. Still haven't got it quite right, but I never will because it's Elliot. I went with a couple of friends and my wife Teresa, to The Giants of Rock and Elliot Randall was on with loads of other bands. One night in the restaurant, I was having some food and a friend of mine tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Hey, what you doing here, who you're with?". I said I'm with the wife, I said, "Who are you with?" He went "I'm with Elliot Randall". He's a sax player. a friend of mine, Joe. "Of course you are, I forgot you were with Elliot Randall!". I did because he gigs with so many different people and he said, "Comeover and I'll introduce you to him". So we sat down, exchanged numbers for the morning. So I said, "You're my idol, I love Reeling in the Years by Steely Dan when I was 14/15". And then as I left the restaurant, my phone went. And it was Joe saying, "Elliot said you want to jump up with him tomorrow?". For the gig because he wasn't doing Reeling in the Years, he was just doing some other stuff, no Steely Dan stuff. Yeah, it was a bit of a surreal moment. So I went and met him the morning, the next morning, just to have a chat and the band weren't even there then. He said oh yeah you'll be alright as long as you could sing it and do the riff and help me out and do a harmony. And I said "Yeah alright" and that was it. He called me up at the end, and that was my own little Elliott Randall moment.

Mark : 16:15

Pretty incredible.

John Summerton : 16:16

Yeah, it was. Yeah. I mean, it's a bit like you playing with Rick Wakeman. So it's a bit, you know, the comparison is a bit like that, really. And we still talk on Facebook, we exchange messages. You know, we talk, we're not best mates but he is accessible. Yeah and he's a lovely, lovely guy.

Mark : 16:32

And the thing is he doesn't have to do that.

John Summerton : 16:34

No, no, no, no, he could have blocked me.

Mark : 16:35

(Laugh) Yeah, like so many other people (laugh). But, I watched a clip the other day of that and he was just so down to earth and genuine on stage.

John Summerton : 16:44

I know. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Don't show me up now. (laugh) That was his line (laugh).

Mark : 16:49

As if! (laugh)

John Summerton : 16:50

Yeah as if. (laugh) That was good, that was an amazing moment.

Mark : 16:54

Let's talk about a couple of other charity gigs that you've been involved with. What about Music for the Marsden concert? Because the line-up on that was mental: Tom Jones, Eric Clapton, Van Morrison, Mick Hucknall, Nick Mason...

John Summerton : 17:07

Two years ago right? I won't bore you, I won't go on too long, but two years ago... we've been doing the Isle of Wight gig and the Hampshire gig for this guy called John Caulcutt who is an amazing man. And he's got lots of these friends like Procol Harumo Horan, Jeff Whitehorn, Gary Brooker - they're all his friends, even Andy Fairweather Low. He was in a band forty years ago with Andy and they've stayed friends. So he said to me, he said "I'm gonna put on this big big concert at the O2 for charity, for the Marsden. I said, "Cor John, that's a big". He said "Yeah, yeah, no one's done one at the O2". He said we want to raise a lots and lots, like a million pound. So he said "I want you to be the band. He said, well you know you're great and you know John". So as it gathered up speed, it sort of, well all these A-listers come in, like, you know, Tom Jones, and. I'm trying to think... Mick Hucknall, and, you know, it went out of our league. You know it went from sort of professional to very professional. And, yeah, I went to a couple of rehearsals to watch, because he said, like, you know, the band is their core band they've got and obviously he got me out me an Teresa, an invite for the charity, and we just made a donation. And yeah, we had a great night, but that was him, and Gary Brooker that arranged that, just the two of them. You'd think there was a massive corporate company that arranged it, but basically it was their idea and what a night that was, that was amazing.

Mark : 18:44

I'm looking at the line-up now.

John Summerton : 18:45

Yeah

Mark : 18:45

Just to even be there and watch it.

John Summerton : 18:46

Yeah, it was and I was there during the day, you know, meeting these people. Mike Rutherford, Paul Carraick, Ian Paice. You know, he was up all night playing drums. Ian Paice was there, you know, Deep Purple's drummer. It was amazing, amazing night.

Mark : 18:59

It's time for the final five. So we're gonna get to the serious bit now John, I've got five questions for you... If you were to recommend one album or song old or new, that you feel everybody should listen to at least once in their lifetime. What would it be and why?

John Summerton : 19:21

John Miles, Music is my first love

Mark : 19:24

Really?

John Summerton : 19:25

Well that's come to me because it's such a, it's got a great, I mean it's a lovely piano. His voice is amazing in it. It's got a great guitar solo. It's got great instrumental and it's a fantastic song. That's literally just come to me. I was going to be obvious and say Peg by Steely Dan or My Old School or something like that, or Rikki Don't Lose That Number. There's so many songs and so many genres but Music is my first love, that is just...

Mark : 19:49

it's very apt as well actually

John Summerton : 19:50

Yeah, or anything by Andrew gold. Yeah, I like structured songs: verse, chorus, chorus, middle-eight, verse, chorus. That's again, any Beatle song really but Music is my first love, it just says it all

Mark : 20:03

What artists and albums are you currently listening to?

John Summerton : 20:07

The moment the songs that I'm trying to learn? (laugh) Which is Foreigner. Feels like the First Time. Great song. Yeah, a bit of Boz Scaggs, Lido. Yeah, I don't know anything really. But still Steely Dan. I mean, I know it sounds boring. But the Steely Dan live album, they're just a thinking man's musician aren't they? Yeah, Steely Dan, really for me.

Mark : 20:32

Next question, name a musician who has had a profound effect on you and tell us why.

John Summerton : 20:40

Jeff Beck, from the album Blow by Blow, because when I was learning to play the guitar, I thought it was just literally strumming up and down and singing along which is what I used to do. Still do that now, but Jeff Beck, I think it was 74/75 was doing some Beatle songs like "She's a Woman" with a voice voice box in a bag on his back with a tube in his mouth, just doing an instrumental wit hardly any singing and a lot of the stuff was instrumental, most of the stuff. Because We've Ended As Lovers, another great track. So Jeff Beck really changed my view, on guitar playing.

Mark : 21:22

If it was possible for you to speak to your younger self when you were first starting out with Flintlock, what would you say to your younger self?

John Summerton : 21:30

Stand in the middle and sing your heart out. Forget everyone else. Don't stand on the side. Don't stand in the background. Push yourself to the front, and believe in yourself. If you feel confident, even if you don't feel confident, just stand in the middle. Since doing The Rubettes thing two years ago in Germany, I look around and the drummer is behind me. and I've got two wing men on my left and right and I'm in the middle, and it just felt, felt good, you know? At 55/56, I was thinking I should have done this years ago.

Mark : 22:04

Final question. Of all the time you've performed over the years, can you tell us the one gig or show that is really memorable and why?

John Summerton : 22:15

God dear... it's hard. There's been, it's sounds, it sounds really terrible, but there's been so many. There are so many. I mean, from a, you know, from a local gig, The Bull in Colchester with 60 people in front of you jumping up and down, to a Germany gig with 8/10 Thousand people. The Isle of Wight gig is good, because they're all jumping up and down, 1200 people in front of you. But I'm just trying to think of the best, the best gig, the best audience, I would say, only because I've got a video of it, is, the Hampshire gig. It was about 300 people, black tie, with John Illsley doing Sultans of Swing. Yeah, that was good.

Mark : 22:58

Well I'm afraid we've run out of time today. John, thank you so much for being on the show, it's been an absolute pleasure. And of course a big thank you to all of you, our listeners. Our guest next week is a female vocalist and pianist, who has performed and recorded with the band Thunder. She's also shared the stage with the likes of Dame Cleo Laine, Scott Gorham from Thin Lizzy and Andy Taylor from Duran Duran. And for the last ten years she has been touring with The Australian Pink Floyd Show, performing in countless arenas, in London, Europe, America and Canada. If you'd like to find out more, then you're gonna have to join us next week. Take care, Bye Bye.